Language Love

[franceslievens]

What follows is partly the continuation of a discussion with sister_luck on the nature of language change, and partly a comment on a recent post in French by frenchani.

My language doesn't have much of a reputation – be it good or bad. Dutch is spoken in only a very tiny part of the world: Flanders, the Netherlands and some Dutch territories overseas. Afrikaans as spoken in South-Africa has established itself as a separate language long before Dutch had its own grammar and spelling. There's still enough links between the two to be able to understand one another when talking slowly, but the two are as different as, say, Swedish and Danish.
Without reputation and that many native speakers, Dutch-speaking people don't seem to take much pride in their language. Internationaly you don't get by with it. We speak English, French, sometimes German. There's a boost of people studying Spanish or Italian (very helpful for the holidays). You won't easily find a Dutch-speaking person trying talk Dutch with the locals when abroad. Neither will you find foreigners trying to talk Dutch with the locals when visiting Bruges. Dutch is a language for a tiny region. Once we leave, we fall back on our knowledge of other languages – first and foremost English as the language of our daily television programs, but also French as the second language in Belgium compulsory taught at schools.
Dutch-speaking is so regionalised that some people take pride in speaking it imperfectly. For them the region comes first, and they proclaim (with pride!) that they don't talk Dutch, wouldn't know how to talk it, and prefer to call themselves and their language Flemish. Indeed their efforts for one form of unified Flemish aren't that new. When writing down the rules for the Dutch language there have been attempts to install Flemish as a language of its own – without much luck. Still it survives and thrives in spoken language, from where it finds its way into IM and text-speak.
The internet is the place where Flemish as a written language suddenly exists. I don't read any Dutch-speaking blogs because of their lack of love for the language. Most internet-speak isn't any different from what I hear from people's mouths: incorrect Dutch with a regional accent. The world wide web was from the start a written world. One would assume that it would be a place to show your love for language, but it became a place to show. Nothing more. Then I don't need to show in Dutch. The audience would be so much smaller than when writing in English.
Of course English won't be able to take away my mother tongue. Contrary to those that take pride in speaking Flemish, I take pride in trying to speak and write correct Dutch – especialy when working with the kids at school. There are parts of me that can only be expressed in that harsh and cruel language – even words that aren't harsh and cruel. But for me it isn't a language to use online. It's a language to hide those things that aren't meant for the public.

Comments

[iphi1.livejournal.com]

There is no such thing as correct Dutch. It's a normative and academic construction based on the Dutch of the Netherlands.

The only reason something is considered correct Dutch is because there happen to be more people in The Netherlands than in Flanders and consequently there are more people who speak in a Netherlandic Dutch way than a in Flemish Dutch way.
This is why in fact some (Flemish) professors claim "Sudurans" is the "correct" Dutch way of saying jus d'orange.

There is much more richness in looking at language from a descriptive angle and to see it as an ever changing thing. Nothing is forever "correct", nothing is forever "wrong". If enough people start saying "sudurans" or "het boek wat daar ligt" it will eventually become the norm whether you like it or not.

We Flemish have nothing to say about this because there are just more people from the Netherlands speaking Dutch. But should we be ashamed because we say "ge zijt nen Hollander" in stead of "jij bent een Nederlander"? Never, it is the way we speak; we are not part of the Netherlands, no matter how much some of the academics of the Nederlandse Taalunie would like us to be.

I actually minored in linguistics and this is one of my pet peeves, I did my thesis on the regional dialect of Roeselare.

I truly hated normative linguistics - they are just random rules based on number of speakers, I do love descriptive linguistics and the fact that language always evolves. Language is language and follows its own rules, you don't need to make rules for it. (Look at Latin or Greek, nobody made up rules for that, but both languages have very strict rules that can be described, but they are not normative, nobody "made" the rules)

In my opinion our language (but also the English language) is becoming richer and richer despite the fact that most people seem to think that our language is becoming poorer and poorer because we borrow constructions and vocabulary of other languages. I would like to test how many words people today know and use versus people 200 years ago. I'm willing to bet a lot of money that today we have a vocabulary that is at least twice as big than 200 years ago.

[frances-lievens.livejournal.com]

You could have great conversations with sister_luck, who loves the descriptive part of linguistics, even though she teaches English and should reinforce norms.

When I talk about language the teacher in me takes over I guess. I'm this person who constantly corrects pupils when they use the wrong past form or say "Hij noemt..." instead of "Hij heet..."

Indeed I'm also convinced our vocabulary and language is becoming richer, if only because of new words for new things. Also -- but this is in no way backed up by research -- it is probable that the average language user has developed a larger and broader vocabulary than peasants of say the early 20th century, simply because of schooling and mass media.

I don't believe we should be ashamed of the way we speak. I use both instances: "Ge/Gij" vs "Je/Jij". I just use them in different contexts. Je/Jij is school for me, Ge/Gij is home. Thinking about it: it's indeed a teacher thing. Unto a certain point I teach the kids norms and try to give them the tools to effectively challenge those norms and play with them.

Nen Hollander...
Makes me think about the question a piano teacher from New Zealand working in Brussels asked me once: "How do I know the difference between feminin and masculin? They are all de-words." To which I only could reply that we Flemish speaking people just know, because there's a difference between "een" and "ne(n)".

Reading my original text again, I know I've written something that's a bit dense? Don't think that's what I want to say. The words don't really show what I think. Or, I haven't made up my mind yet.

Thanks for replying.
How are you doing these days?

[iphi1.livejournal.com]

I may not have responded to the main point you were trying to make in your post. Sorry *grin*.

It's just when I see people talking about how there is only one "correct" form of Dutch and everyone should speak it then I get all worked up and can't not react. Very interesting post though and very interesting discussion below.

I'm doing great. Thanks!

[frances-lievens.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, I noticed (and I guess you have found out where my Hometown must be located now by reading the discussion below!)

Of course there isn't one "correct" form of Dutch, but I get bit worked up with people using one word for something and not even taking into account they can say it differently. I guess that's where language gets poorer: people not giving attention to the different faces of one language. (I hope this comes out okay. There has been wine and my language skills have been going downhill.)

You'll love sister_luck. Really, you should add one another and talk about language. ;-)

Great to here you're doing ... err ... great. *g*

[frances-lievens.livejournal.com]

Bugger. I can't typ these days. That should be "hear" of course and not "here" (and certainly not "bear" liked I typed first). *hangs head in shame*

[sister-luck.livejournal.com]

Here in Germany, regional varieties are in decline - at least the proper dialects which are disappearing because of more mobility and the stigma that was attached to them in the past when people were told to speak proper High German, which I think is sad in a way because it means a loss of diversity. Spoken German - for most people - has retained its dialectal tinge and I'm sure that I can be identified as someone from the Rhineland by my accent.

I'm always amazed at folks who can switch between broad dialect which often has its own grammar and High German depending on who they're talking to. Some people try to keep their dialect alive and most regional newspapers offer a column in dialect. In some regions it's even taught in schools as a distinct variety. But I've never heard anyone say it's the only proper way of speaking or writing.

I think it's important to take pride in one's regional language variety, but it's equally important to know the difference between standard language and regional use, not only for the ease of communication, but also because it's a marker of status (rightly or wrongly) and just inappropriate in some contexts, like semi-official letters. I don't mind its use in blogging, personal letters etc. as long as the recipients understand it, too.

In a school context, it becomes difficult when the dialect is still strong. On the one hand, the children need to learn the standard language, but on the other hand their dialect shouldn't be completely banned at school - something which used to happen, especially at grammar schools, where the children who came from families where dialect was still spoken were really looked down upon.

[frances-lievens.livejournal.com]

How you describe it, it sounds pretty much like the situation over here. I can't talk proper Hometown dialect, because my parents never spoke it with us. It wasn't until my sister was 5 and I was two that we returned to Hometown. My parents chose to talk a standard Dutch with us that has indeed a dialectal tinge. It's the spoken language iphi1 hints at when she rightfully reprimands me for talking about "correct Dutch". Of course I should talk about "standard Dutch", which is only a norm.
I do understand my parents' dialect because they talk it with each other and other members of the family.

I don't mind the use of regional language in blogging or personal letters. I do it as well. But what I do mind is people admitting they don't know or care about standard language.

But yeah, like I said above: I've been a bt quick in writing this and seem to be too harsh in my opinions. Both you and iphi1 have convinced me that I should stop being so school-teachery in my spare time. :-)

[sister-luck.livejournal.com]

The sanity of the descriptivists prevails!

I think it's rather problematic that other varieties are looked down upon and are seen as inferior to the standard language and that speaking a dialect is often seen as a sign of the speaker being uneducated.

At the same time, I'll - privately - laugh at my students because they can't speak - Monkshappyriver has a very distinct accent which sounds more like speech impediment than a dialectal variety.

[frances-lievens.livejournal.com]

Maybe I still carry around the weight of my Home Province's singsong accent being frowned upon by the rest of Flanders. Yes, I wear a stigma that's equivalent to what people from the English North must endure. ;-)

I never laugh at my students language use &nadsh; be it privately or publicly, because for most of them Dutch is their second or even hrid language. The Dutch-speaking kids I do get speak a much more standardised Dutch than I used to speak. I guess it's because their parent's origins hardly ever lie in Brussels...

[sister-luck.livejournal.com]

Hmm, that comment makes me look bad, doesn't it? It's a good-natured laugh, more in the sense of "kids they say the darndest things" and not in any way contemptuous. Like when my students come up with an English sentence that means something completely different. Best example: One boy couldn't come up with the English word "customer" and then decided that maybe, just maybe the German word "Kunde" would work in a slightly Englified version. You can guess what he came up with - and I managed to stop him before he had completed the word... And I always try to keep a straight face when that kind of thing happens.

[frances-lievens.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, then I laugh too sometimes, even out loud in class when it's really silly and the kids know they've said something silly. Sometimes we laugh because I say something silly.

And actually I hadn't interpreted that comment as making you look bad! ;-)

[iphi1.livejournal.com]

ok, that's just too funny. I hope he remembers this when he grows up and encounters the word c*nt. Hahahaha.

[iphi1.livejournal.com]

I too mourn the loss of variety in the Dutch language.

I totally agree with the everything you just wrote.

We should really try to preserve the regional dialects as well as having a standard language that everyone can use to communicate.